HR Tech Marketing Masters: How the Top Vendors Set the Industry Standard

I am a marketer by heart and as someone who has grown up in the HR technology industry over the past 20 years I have come to appreciate good marketing when I see it. And I also cringe when I see marketing fail.

Over the past few years our industry has seen an influx of vendors come to market with various software solutions for HR and recruiting, but for the most part these vendors fail to market themselves properly. They don’t stand out in a sea of other vendors. Their messaging is off. They fail to capitalize on media wins, they don’t invest in building their brand. 

I could go on.

Today we are living in the golden age of HR technology which means the space is crowded and getting noisier every day. Only the vendors who invest in their brand awareness will survive and thrive now that the job market is normalizing. 

Of course you’ll need a good product market fit too. If there’s one thing I learned in Marketing 101, even the best advertising won’t sell a bad product.

Founder Led Marketing

For startups in our space, those with founder led marketing strategies tend to get more traction if the founder is an outspoken/communicative champion for the brand.

There are many benefits to founder-led marketing for a software company. Some of the most notable benefits include:

• Authenticity and credibility: Founders are often seen as the most knowledgeable and passionate advocates for their products. This can give their marketing efforts a level of authenticity and credibility that is difficult to replicate with hired marketers.

• Deep understanding of the product and market: Founders have a deep understanding of their product and the market they are operating in. This allows them to create marketing campaigns that are targeted and resonate with their ideal customers.

• Flexibility and agility: Founder-led marketing teams are typically more flexible and agile than traditional marketing teams. This allows them to quickly adapt to changing market conditions and make decisions without having to go through layers of bureaucracy.

• Cost-effectiveness: Founder-led marketing can be a very cost-effective way to market a software company. Founders can often leverage their own personal networks and relationships to reach potential customers.

• Passion and enthusiasm: Founders are often passionate and enthusiastic about their products. This passion can be contagious and can help to create a positive buzz around the company.

Of course, there are also some potential challenges to founder-led marketing. For example, founders may not have the time or expertise to handle all aspects of marketing. They may also need to be careful not to let their personal opinions and biases cloud their marketing judgment.

If you are a founder of an HR tech startup, I encourage you to consider using founder-led marketing to reach your target audience. Founders can build relationships with key influencers in their industry. This can help to generate positive word-of-mouth for the company. With careful planning and execution, founder-led marketing can be a very successful way to market your software company.

Memorable examples of founder led startups include;

• Amit Parmar of Cliquify, I see him everywhere at events and making the rounds on industry podcasts talking about employer branding and the Cliquify platform. He is constantly on the go.

• Job van der Voort of Remote.com: Not only does he have the best first name in the industry but he leads arguably the best vendor in the global payroll category. I see Job’s name all over the news.

• Aman Brar of Canvas: A few years back, Canvas was a hot text recruiting startup led by its jovial leader Aman Brar. The company was later acquired by Employ Inc.

• Adam Gordon of CandidatedID: acquired by iCIMS last year, Adam Gordon led the CRM platform from start to finish. He was a constant champion of the tool online and off.

• Daniel Chait of Greenhouse: back in the 2010’s Co-founder Daniel Chait led the charge for what would become an ATS powerhouse.

• Johnny Campbell from SocialTalent: I remember Johnny was ever present on the conference circuit touting the benefits of their recruiter learning platform and talkin’ tactics. If there was a panel he was on it.

I’ll also give a shoutout to a couple of rising stars, Mark Simpson (Pillar) and Darrian Mikell (Qualifi).

HR Tech Marketing Masters

I asked my network which companies stand out in their minds, here’s the names that came up most often.

• Plum: ”The way they showed up at RecFest and their online marketing is just so well done. Leaders are true experts and share on LinkedIn too. (Will Staney) Plum definitely stole the show at HRtech with an amazing "All you need is Plum" play, inspired by the Beatles LOVE By Cirque du Soleil event they sponsored. If that wasn't enough, you could create your own Beatles inspired t-shirt at their exhibit.” (Ryan Affolter)

• HireEZ: Probably the best example of leveraging community. They are famous for getting early traction in the recruiter community by leveraging influencers and fostering a community around their sourcing platform.

• Phenom: One of the most consistent firms in our space. They are masters at content creation, events (virtual/in-person) and staying engaged with all facets of the recruitment industry. They’re persistent too…you see their efforts week in and week out.

• HiBob: Great at event marketing. I always tend to notice their booth and offering. AT HR tech they are always near the front with massages or profile photo shoots.

• Paradox.ai. “They are very consistent in their digital and offline visual identity. And in today's market, they are bringing to the forefront outcomes data as social proof.”(Bennet Sung)

A HiBob ad from Facebook. Love the Austin Powers angle they took.

Plum has come on fast in the past year with a great event strategy and its outreach online with influencers, podcasters and others in the space to highlight the Plum brand. The HireEZ marketing team led by Shannon Pritchett, are masters at building community around a software product.

Phenom, who I know well, is a well oiled marketing machine and is particularly great at content. They also do a great job at keeping influencers and analysts up to date with emails like their Analyst Newsletter which I get monthly.

I asked my friend Tim Sackett, Mr. “HR Famous” himself, who he thinks are the best marketers. 

He had a lot to say;

“That’s a big question”, he said over an email exchange…“because it could be broken down into who does the best job within the community, and who does the best job overall. Because that leads to who is the real buyer? If you look at Workday, Oracle, SAP, and the "Pays" all the payroll companies do the best job. You see them everywhere and obviously, they have massive budgets to get their brand in front of everyone.”

But a big budget doesn't mean the best marketing that resonates with buyers. The big vendors all have their own conferences these days and seem to mimic each other so I don't see much differentiation among them. It can come across as rather generic marketing. But payroll tech is not that sexy so…

In terms of the Big 3- WD, Oracle, SAP – “they know the real buyer at the enterprise level is the CFO, CIO, and CEO” Sackett added. “That’s why you see them sponsoring PGA events, sailing, etc. It's big money stuff that most people can’t afford, but those kinds of titles can. In terms of the payroll companies, it’s about establishing your brand everywhere because it’s so easy to switch from one to the other, and they all cost basically the same and do 90% of the same stuff. But, when that HR leader, payroll manager, or office manager gets frustrated, you better be top of mind because they are most likely only making one call to switch.”

The vast majority of HR and TA technology is not bought. It’s sold.

~Tim Sackett

The best vendors are the ones who definitely have a brand but are also great at selling and following up. And that isn’t always the best technology. They are just the best at selling it.

“I like what BambooHR does on a consistent basis”, Sackett continued. “They might be the best HR technology company on the planet in terms of creating lead generation. BambooHR got there by building a massive content marketing machine, and they feed it constantly, and by creating a massive email marketing engine. Any week of the year, BambooHR has informational webinars running with topics that HR professionals find interesting that others might find boring. They are constantly educating HR pros for free, and it’s amazing branding.

The other one that is hard to miss is Eightfold. It doesn’t matter what enterprise CHRO or Head of Talent I’m talking about; they will ask me about Eightfold. Eightfold also has a rather large budget for marketing and not a lot of competition in what they do. Still, they have also done a great job in content marketing and making sure they are a part of every conference and opportunity to be in front of their potential users and buyers.

Building brand awareness isn’t some secret sauce. It’s about a conscious, consistent effort to get your message out. And stay on message. As marketers, we tend to get tired of hearing our own message, but a small fraction of your audience actually hears it each time you broadcast it. You need to beat the drum over and over and over, then beat it some more. We hate to hear this, but it’s also about building a lead gen list of emails and contacts that you can consistently message to and never stop building and refreshing.”

He’s right about the messaging. I’ve seen too many vendors muddle their unique value proposition with too many buzzwords which tends to just confuse potential buyers. You need to quickly tell buyers what problem it solves and consistently (and persistently) hammer home that message with your prospects.

Recruiters are not technologists. So I’ve always felt you have to simplify and clarify your message into terms they understand. Speak their language and don’t over complicate your pitch.

What Buyers Want

Sarah White, Founder of Aspect43 a strategy and analyst group focused on HR Tech, conducts an annual Insights at Work research, a yearly study looking at how technology is impacting employees, HR and leaders at work. As part of that, they conduct voice of customer research and how buyers want to engage differently with vendors during the marketing and sales process.

Here’s a few numbers to chew on from their most recent data.

• 60% want more stats/research from vendors

• 45% want more infographics

• 40% want more video demos on vendor website

• 39% want more expert led webinars

• 75% of all buyers want fewer sales calls/emails

• 36% want more regional roadshow events

• 40% of buyers use conferences to shortlist vendors

• 54% say brand is essential to get a signed contract

• 94% use brand awareness to inform buying decisions

Those last two stand out to me. Brand awareness has to be there if you want to be a player. To do that you must have a consistent presence offline as you do online. 

And you have to invest in metrics for the industry. The more you can prove your product works with studies and reports, the more ammunition you’ll have to back up your claims. That includes case studies and detailing how clients are successful with it.

MARKETING RESOURCE: 2024 HR and Recruiting Event Calendar

Fostering Community

Engaging the community online and off is another key to great HR tech marketing. There are dozens of groups across social media where recruiters and HR pros gather to talk shop in an unfiltered way. Vendors can learn a lot about their struggles and day to life by lurking in them.

Back when sourcing platform HireEZ was known as Hiretual they did one of the best jobs I’d ever seen by a vendor when it comes to leveraging these groups and channels to drive product adoption. They gave away their tool to some of the top sorcerers in the industry and let them drive the conversation about the product. I first learned of the tool from the various recruiter facebook groups where people were talking about it and showing it off. It was a very grass roots approach that put them on the map.

Then when Hiretual changed its name to HireEZ they flew out 30 of the top influencers (including me) to silicon valley to announce the news and their latest funding round. That effort both them tons of mentions and goodwill in the TA community.

I asked their Head of Marketing Shannon Pritchett how they foster community around their software. She writes;

“Fostering a thriving community means embracing service, active listening, and continuous support beyond merely delivering a product. We value every user's input, acknowledging that we don't possess all the answers. Our inclusive approach builds belonging and ownership within the community, essential for success.

With a servant-leader mindset, we prioritize the community's needs, offering resources like the Outbound Recruiting Academy and facilitating connections to encourage collaboration. Trust is pivotal, established through transparent, honest interactions that go beyond product sales to create relationships based on mutual respect.

Continual adaptation ensures we evolve alongside the community, meeting changing needs effectively. Ultimately, our focus extends beyond the product; it's about nurturing relationships, delivering value, and empowering collective success within the HireEZ community.”

Educating the Industry

At RecTech Media our goal is to inform the modern recruiter and today’s vendors can be hit or miss with their content marketing. Phenom the talent experience platform, is one of my favorites when it comes to generating good content. They have a great video series on Linkedin, they churn out tons of research and they hold a lot of online and in person events to educate the masses. For example, they recently held an “AI Day” which I thought was a timely online event for the industry.

Some vendors crank out content for SEO purposes (the Workable blog is a good example) while others like Phenom take a more holistic approach. 

I asked Phenom’s Director of Content Marketing, Monica Montesa to give me a sense of how they approach their strategy. She said the following;

“For us, the purpose of any piece of content is to make an impact across various HR stakeholders: talent acquisition, talent management, HRIS, HRBPs, and the c-suite. Ensuring we address relevant pain points and solutions, elevate inspiring stories from our customers, empower our audience to navigate the ever-changing talent landscape — and distribute this content in the right formats and across the right channels — is key. Before publishing content, we always ask: Who are we speaking to? Is it relevant and helpful? Is it engaging/telling a compelling story? Is it in the right format (e.g., video, social, blog)?

Last year we began publishing industry and vertical content to add another layer of relevancy to our audiences. We push the limits for the types of content we create, as well as the channels where it's available — and we're always looking for new ways to do more. Our social engagement alone has tripled YoY, which signals that HR teams are connecting with what we're sharing.”

Good HR tech content marketing takes time and effort. Any vendor who wants to do it right needs to invest in that kind of strategy. Becoming a trusted source of industry insights and tactics means playing the long game.

Leverage Industry Influencers 

If you want to amplify your message you’ll need to partner with industry thought leaders, bloggers, and social media influencers to reach a wider audience. 

Collaborate with them on content creation, webinars, and social media campaigns to gain credibility and trust.

In addition to myself, some of my favorite influencers include Tim Sackett, Chad/Cheese, Keirsten Greggs, William Tincupp and any/all HR podcasters with an audience.

Influencers are trusted people in the community, use them to your advantage. Joel Cheesman from the popular Chad & Cheese podcast also gave me his take on what HR tech vendors should be doing today;

“The future belongs to those who build trust. Anyone with a Series A round of funding can buy as many eyeballs and get as much attention as they want. That only goes so far though. Even in America, money doesn't buy you trust, which has become the real equity of any successful brand. The process takes time, and you have to give lots before you start taking. Too many companies are trying to get lucky on the first date, to use a common analogy. Give great content, which does not include another lame blog post or webinar. Entertain and be real, which social media now rewards exponentially. Partner with trusted industry leaders, who are all over the place and are great at lighting the fires of word-of-mouth. Become an exceptional  storyteller.” 

Conclusion

I see a lot of bad PR in our industry as well. I launched RecTech PR to help with that by creating a targeted, industry specific way to spread your important news. I’m not sure your latest award qualifies for a press release (employers don't care you won some award) but when you have new features, funding, acquisitions, new hires or important research to announce make sure that outreach goes to the right places. There are plenty of news outlets such as HRtechfeed.com, RecruitngDaily, ERE Media, HR Dive, HR Executive, SHRM and more.

And let me share one specific pet peeve I have about vendors.

Too often I see this one mistake: not sharing media wins. If you get on a podcast, are quoted in an article, are appearing in an upcoming webinar, etc you need to SHARE that in a timely manner. I can't tell you how many vendors I’ve had on my podcast who don't leverage that free advertising as much as they can. 

There are other aspects of marketing such as SEO and Analyst relations that I didn’t cover in depth so perhaps we’ll save that for another post. But I hope this article spurs your team to become better at HR tech marketing. 

For me, marketing an HR technology tool today means crafting an A to Z marketing approach that includes both online and offline tactics (aka events). Those firms that can master this strategy will be the ones to watch. 

Author

Chris Russell is the Managing Director of RecTech Media and founder of RecTech PR. Connect with him on LinkedIn.

"Greenhouse is the best ATS" says Recruiting Pro

I noticed a LinkedIn post recently by a talent acquisition pro named Jaime Engle. She praised greenhouse as the best ATS so I just had to get her on Zoom to see why. Hear what she has to say about her favorite recruiting tools.

TRANSCRIPT

Welcome to RecTech, the podcast where recruiting and technology intersect. Each month you'll hear from vendors shaping the recruiting world, along with recruiters who'll tell you how they use technology to hire talent. Now here's your host, the mad scientist of online recruiting, Chris Russell.

Chris Russell:

Hi again, RecTechies. Welcome to the only podcast that helps employers and recruiters connect with more candidates through technology inspired conversations. Recruiting technology is the key to hiring great talent. That's why this show exists. All right.

Jaime Engle started her career in talent acquisition on the agency side, doing full desk tech recruiting at two different organizations before going in-house to a Chicago startup called Uptake. She helped grow the company to over 850 employees. After that, she joined a data science and SaaS consulting firm called Civis Analytics, where she was promoted to a senior recruiter then recruiting manager, and after contracting at Salesforce for a bit, she returned to the tech world at Balto, an AI call assistant software company based in St. Louis, where she helped grow and scale the business as director of talent. She joins me now on Zoom, from Chicago. Jaime, welcome to the show. It's great to have you.

Jaime Engle:

Thank you so much, Chris. I'm so excited. I've never been on a podcast, and I'm honored.

Chris Russell:

First time for everything.

Jaime Engle:

Yeah, today's your lucky day, so thank you for joining us today, and appreciate it. It's not every day you see recruiters praising their ATS on LinkedIn, but that's what you did recently, and that's why I reached out to you. I love recruiters with opinions, and here you are. So I guess before I read that post to the audience, what inspired you to write it? What was the impetus behind it?

You know, I did not think it would strike such a chord. I have been job searching for about six weeks, and it just really jumps out at me, when a company uses Greenhouse, it shows me already a sneak peek into how they view recruiting. So I just thought, "If this is something I'm thinking, as I'm job searching, I wonder if other people are thinking the same."

Chris Russell:

That's interesting. Yes, I think if I was a recruiter looking for work, I'd want to go work for a company that have good technology in place, so I think that's what you're getting at there. All right, let me read what she's wrote, because I think this is great. So it caught my eye, and again, that's why I brought her on the show.

All right, quote, "Greenhouse is the best ATS. Lever is second to Greenhouse, Workday is the worst. I said it, I stand by it." You're not alone in that a feeling either, by the way. "Fetcher and Gem are game-changing sourcing tools, dashboard slash data desk capabilities Gem has to communicate pipeline to leadership is simply..." chef's kiss. "Not all companies need these tools right away, but as you look to scale next year, the investment is worth the conversation. Weigh the cost of these tools and their competitors against an added headcount. Feel free to disagree with me, but I will die on that Greenhouse hill. Just saying."

So that's pretty confident, there, Jaime. Was Greenhouse. Did you have that in place at Balto, when you were there?

Jaime Engle:
I primarily used Greenhouse over the last seven and a half years, but I've also used Workday, iCIMS, Lever and Resumator, which I think Resumator maybe became JazzHR.

Chris Russell:

Yes, it did. Yep.

Jamie Engle:

Clearly, I love Greenhouse. And I think, the opposite of a red flag, it's a green flag for me when a company that I'm applying for, I recognize Greenhouse as the ATS. As I was just saying, when I see they're using Greenhouse, it shows me the company is made, number one, the financial investment required, and on top of that I can assume that scaling and growth is a top priority for them. I was surprised how many people responded and interacted with it, but it confirmed my suspicion that at least in the tech startup world, Greenhouse is by far the most beloved and popular ATS. It's so easy to use, so easy to customize. It's so easy to collaborate with non recruiters, using it, so those are the main reasons I love it.

Chris Russell:

Yeah. You have a favorite feature of Greenhouse. Does something stand out to you?

Jaime Engle:

Oh, yeah. There are two, that I thought of. First, I've been begging for the job kickoff form for years. They just put that in and so now it's the first step of the interview process, so a role is approved. You can send the job kickoff form to the hiring manager for them to fill it out before the intake session. Game changer. It's so awesome. It makes your first intake session so much more productive, and if you get hit by a car, if you quit, if you're sick, whoever steps in can see all that information. It's not in an email, it's not in Google Drive. It's in the system, which is so awesome.

Chris Russell:

Yeah, very cool.

Jaime Engle:

The other thing I like is, the interview prep section in each stage. So I build in my Boolean strings for sourcing into the application stage, so I don't have to keep it in my email drafts. I write interview scripts that flesh out what the role is into my first round phone call, so I'm not tabbing around. And then, I also can build in what to look for, for the hiring manager or the interview panelists' scorecard, to help them better prep, help them be set up for success. And just ensure that they have all the information in one spot right before they do an interview.

Chris Russell:

Yeah, I've always liked Greenhouse because they were one of the first companies ever to put the apply form on the actual job description page, versus having to click apply, go to another page. They really streamlined that aspect of it and I've always loved them for that, just going back to some years, now.

Jaime Engle:

Yeah. One thing I was surprised by was the love for Ashby. It sounds like the new cool kid on the ATS block. I had heard of it in one interview, and I wasn't at all surprised how much people hated Workday, but I was surprised how many other applicant tracking systems there are that people hate, that I've never heard of or used. Oracle, BrassRing, SuccessFactors. I was surprised how much people love Lever, and even the debate between Greenhouse and Lever, but honestly I've used that one before. And the functionality does feel similar to Greenhouse, so maybe I do get it.

Chris Russell:

Yeah, they kind of both come out at the same time, almost, in that same group of players came up around similar times, versus the old guard out there. But that's pretty cool.

How much texting were you using in recruiting? Particularly with Greenhouse, and how... One of the things I've been harping on in ATS is that just, they're not that... Where's that text first mentality from these guys, in terms of just making it easier to communicate with candidates? Talk to me about how you use texting in recruiting, and how some of these ATSs do, as well.

Jaime Engle:

So I don't use texting too much for cold outreach or sourcing, but I do use it a fair amount when I've established a relationship with a candidate to help move the process faster. So scheduling, giving them quick feedback, quick logistical question and answering. But I've not used it as much as some of my younger counterparts, swear by it. At first, I thought it was a little invasive, but honestly once you've had that first call and they know who you are, they know your number, they'll probably respond. I've had a lot of success just moving things faster through the funnel using texting, rather than getting buried in email.

Chris Russell:

You mentioned Gem and Fetcher in your post, so let's start with Gem. Tell us, tell the audience what it is, and why you like it so much.

Jaime Engle:

Yeah, Gem is really interesting and robust. I just used it for the first time at Balto, and it's an email sequencing tool to help set up cold outreach email sequences, or email campaigns for prospects.

One thing I love about it is this send-on-behalf-of feature, so instead of coming from Joe Schmo recruiter, I can send it on behalf of say, the VP of engineering. From his email address. All he has to do, I do send him the copy ahead of time so he can sign off on it, and he has to click like, "I'm okay with this," but the response rate goes through the roof. Of course, when you're hearing from the person who'd either be your direct manager, or your boss's boss. "Hey, I picked you, I saw you," and I just had tons of success with that.

And then usually, that would be the first message and then the second message would be like, "Let me intro you to Jaime," and I'd be CC'd, and of course it's me the whole time. But that was really a great way to just up my open rates, and those reply and interested rates.

Chris Russell:

That's cool. Yeah, I like that. I like that feature. That sounds like a game changer. What about Fetcher?

Jaime Engle:

Well, the other thing about Gem we didn't use as much, but there was really a lot of functionality behind the dashboarding and data visualization aspects of it. You could look at pass-through rates, you could look at just overall trends and data of the last whatever time period, and that was really effective to explain our success rates to non recruiters, and to the leadership team. That was something that I'd never seen before. Often, in recruiting, it's just spreadsheets on spreadsheets and just a really long paragraph of text in an email. So this was a really compelling way to show the work we were doing to our leadership team.

Chris Russell:

Nice. Do you remember any sort of the numbers, in terms of the response rates you were getting from candidates?

Jaime Engle:

Oh, I wish I did. I should have written that down. I can't say I remember what the numbers were, but I remember, just the stark... Maybe 30% difference, in the message coming from me versus coming from a direct hiring manager.

Chris Russell:

Yeah. LinkedIn In Mails, are those dead? What's your opinion on this? All I'm getting is just basically pitches these days. It's just like... What's the feeling among recruiters out there about it?

Jaime Engle:

I think they're a dying art. I think LinkedIn, generally, people are... They're on it less. Recruiters are always in it, just like we're always in the ATS, but I do understand the texting instead of an InMail. I just, I've received a few texts as cold outreach, and it feels spammy to me. But that's also because I've not really received good, customized text outreach. Honestly, I'm so old school, I prefer a cold call. Cold call me, pitch me with your real voice, be brave, know something about me. And I actually started chatting with Pave, a compensation benchmarking software solution, because they had a terrific cold call. And I was on the way, picking up one of my kids from daycare, and I was like, "This company has it."

I was so impressed and I ended up doing a demo, getting pricing, really cool solution. We didn't end up going with them because of budget issues, but yeah, I just really respect a good old fashioned, well-executed cold call.

Chris Russell:

Okay. That's if you pick up the phone though, right?

Jaime Engle:

Yeah, most people probably don't. I've cold called before, so I enjoy the banter.

Chris Russell:

Nice. Gotcha. How about Fetcher? What does that tool do for you?

Jaime Engle:

Yeah, Fetcher was a sourcing tool. You used it in conjunction with LinkedIn, but it would source candidates from... You would put in all of these requirements, and the job description keywords. It was pretty robust. And so, I would say every week or so, they would send you anywhere between 10 and 50 candidates. I would say 75 to 80% of the candidates were pretty close to the mark, and then you could plug in the candidates from Fetcher, into the Gem email sequencing. So really, combined, the tools were awesome.

Personally, I am a little more picky than Fetcher. I liked to just do the sourcing myself on LinkedIn, plug them into Gem, but that's just me. Some of my other teammates really, really liked Fetcher, and for the lower level, like client services, client success, less technical roles, they did a better job and had a higher hit rate with strong candidate profiles, than I think... A lot of the roles I was looking for were data science, engineering, heavy principal, really senior, niche technical positions that I feel like I would just do a better job finding the exact right candidate. But the lower level roles... Not lower level, but the less difficult roles, I think Fetcher had a better success rate.

Chris Russell:

At your last role, did you rely at all on any kind of job postings through Indeed or LinkedIn? It was it more just sourcing, as far as just filling roles?

Jaime Engle:

We had an incredibly high referral rate. I think 65% of my hires in one calendar year were referrals.

Chris Russell:

Really? Wow.

Jaime Engle:

Also. Yeah, it was pretty wild, actually. It was also a really low turnover company, so I think that helped, just the street cred of the company was really positive. But we actually didn't pay for LinkedIn Recruiter, and we didn't pay for LinkedIn job postings. We only used the free LinkedIn postings and LinkedIn would scrape, I think, or I guess I'm not entirely sure how it works. But Google would... I feel like I'm [inaudible 00:14:38]...

Chris Russell:

Scrape the site? Your site?

Jaime Engle:

Yeah, it would scrape the site, and so it would be on Indeed and LinkedIn, and Google, and maybe one other place that was for free. And that worked fairly well for us.

Chris Russell:

Interesting. So it seems like you probably worked mostly in the tech startup world, I wanted to get your take on all the layers happening there. And is it just a matter of those companies just over-hiring during the pandemic? Is that what happened?

Jaime Engle:

I think so. I think there was a salary boom, maybe 10 to 15% higher than the real market value for a lot of positions. It was definitely an employee-led market, and then it shifted to an employer-led market. I couldn't believe, in the last six months, the increase in caliber of candidate across the board because of all these tech layoffs. It's difficult to say what exactly caused it, but I was just really surprised how impressive every candidate was that was inbound, because of the layoffs.

Chris Russell:

That's interesting. Okay. What's missing in recruitment tech? One of my questions is, is there a tool you think should exist today that doesn't? Do you have any ideas there?

Jaime Engle:

Yeah, so I mentioned the comp planning tools earlier, so I know some of these solutions exist. I've not had the chance to work with them yet, but compensation benchmarking and succession planning, I did demos and got pricing info about some of those solutions. I was super impressed with Welcome as a comp planning solution. It was really shockingly similar to Carta, Pave and Benefits, but was significantly cheaper than those options, and you could pay for it monthly. Which gave companies the option to utilize it as needed, maybe in their annual comp review cycles for a month or two, and then turn it off. And then turn it on again when they needed it again, probably six or nine months later.

The other one sort of related to that, I'd love to see that I've never seen, is a workforce planning, headcount planning software, that could be created by execs shared with the recruiting team and plugged into the ATS. In my dream recruiting world, it would be edited in real time, approved by the budget owner, and appear in Greenhouse after it's been approved by all the big cheeses. Have you ever seen something like that?

Chris Russell:

I have not. No.

Jamie Engle:

I would love it.

Chris Russell:

There you go vendors, so there's some free product advice for you.

Jaime Engle:

Yeah.

Chris Russell:

All right Jaime, let's talk about your recruiting skills a bit. What's the most creative way you were able to contact and source a candidate in the last few years? You got a creative story that comes to mind?

Jaime Engle:

Yeah. For me, it starts with the power of my network. I keep in touch with so many people that I've met maybe one time, or never, in real life. I'm super connected with the venture capital community in Chicago, so we'll pass each other talent. If it doesn't work out for one of my companies, but someone in the portfolio company is hiring, we'll talk about that. We'll talk about trends in certain areas of tech that are coming up, or on the downward trend, from a sourcing perspective. So I just try really hard to always be networking, not only when I need a job, but I think it comes pretty naturally to recruiters to just always be checking in with candidates that didn't work out, or candidates who showed so much interest and so much follow up. But similarly, just keeping in touch with other people that are similarly well connected and just being really intentional about that.

Chris Russell:

Gotcha. What's job hunting like, right now? Give me your perspective as a recruiter having to job hunt, and some of the frustrations you may be feeling in that.

Jaime Engle:

Yeah, I mean, Q4 just always sucks. It sucks even more to be laid off during Q4. December slows down wildly, once you hit December 20th, business is pretty much over.

Chris Russell:

Yeah.

Jaime Engle:

Q1 is always better. February and March, I imagine there's going to be a boom. That said, I've been looking for about six weeks, and it's been a lot more encouraging than I expected. I've had a lot of really great interviews. I think a huge part of your job search is figuring out what you don't want to do. There have been a lot of conversations I've had that, "Could I do this? Yes. Do I want to? Probably not." And that's okay, because I think companies want you to be pumped about the role, and you should have in your head a certain threshold that you're looking for. No job is going to be a hundred percent perfect, but is it 80% perfect? Could you do it for two to three years? Those are the kind of chunks and factors I think through.

Chris Russell:

Yeah, that's interesting. How about just in terms of applying? Are you getting frustrated with some of these older ATSs out there, or just anything that comes to mind there?

Jaime Engle:

I literally can't believe how annoying it is, to have to set up an account every time I apply for a company that uses Workday. Most of the time I just see it, and I navigate off, and I don't apply for that job. Because I can't handle it, because I know it would be my problem, if I worked there.

Chris Russell:

I was just helping my daughter job search the other day, she's 19, she's looking for something part-time, right? And she had to go apply on the company website, create an account, of course. I think in this case, it actually had to give her a PIN, do a PIN number instead of a password, which I thought was decent. But anyway, they asked her to fill in this questionnaire, not a questionnaire, but a few questions. And one of the questions was just, "Tell us about your last two jobs and why you left," and they gave her a little text area to type it in. So she typed it in, and she hit submit, and it came back as an error saying, "Oh, it only takes 256 characters in that field."

Jaime Engle:

Oh, geez.

Chris Russell:

Shortened it. So she shortened it once, it didn't work. They didn't tell her how many characters she had written, of course.

Jaime Engle:

Well, that's the worst...

Chris Russell:

Tried it again a second time, it still was too long. Tried it the third time, still too long. I'm sitting there, I was trying to explain to her, "This is why companies can't hire so well, right now."

Jaime Engle

Absolutely. And honestly, that question is so much better suited in a real life conversation...

Chris Russell:

And it was for just a retail job, or something.

Jaime Engle:

... it's not a yes or no question. Yeah, that's super weird.

Chris Russell:

And this is...

Jaime Engle:

The other thing... Yeah, sorry. Go.

Chris Russell:

It was a big national brand, too. It was like, "What are you doing? I don't understand."

Jaime Engle:

Yeah. The other thing related to that, just ease of use for candidates, that Greenhouse still hasn't really mastered. Candidates and recruiters. Their mobile app is not very good.

Chris Russell:

Yes.

Jaime Engle:

I can't do hardly anything on my phone, and that feels like a miss. It feels like it should be easier for me, while I'm on my phone, to move a candidate to another stage. Or to do more than just look at the activity feed. I think that's something that needs to be improved.

Chris Russell:

I think you're right there. I think we need more mobile apps from these ATS companies, to help you do your job better. It's just simpler, it's easier, it's faster.

Jaime Engle:

It's 2022. How is it not mobile friendly?

Chris Russell:

I know. I mean, we're all... Well, that's a long story, but yeah. Numerous research around mobile applying, and things like that, but yeah. Vendors still have a long way to go when it comes to both mobile apply for the candidate, and just the overall recruiter experience that they give you guys.

Well, vendors. There you go. There's some good advice from a recruiter in the trenches. And Jaime, I want to thank you for joining us today, but tell us what you're looking for as far as your next gig. What do you want to do?

Jaime Engle

Yeah, for sure. I'm casting a pretty wide net. What I'm looking for is a chance to help grow a high functioning recruiting function, at a company with a smart, emotionally intelligent leadership team at the helm. Bonus points if they've successfully exited in any way before. I'm passionate about partnering with business leaders to equip them to build resilient, productive teams quickly. So that's the feel.

Chris Russell:

Awesome. Well tell the audience how to find you.

Jaime Engle:

Oh, you can find me on LinkedIn. Trying to post most days. I was trying to post every day, and then I was like, "This is a bit much. I'm going to relax."

Chris Russell:

Nice. Well, Jaime Engle, from Chicago. Appreciate your time today, and thanks for joining us here on RecTech, your first podcast appearance. So congratulations, you're in the books.

Jaime Engle:

Thank you, Chris.

Chris Russell:

All right. That will do for this episode of the RecTech podcast, be sure to follow us on the socials, Facebook, Twitter, and LinkedIn, At RecTech Media, see every podcast and video blog we publish. Thanks for listening, everyone. And remember, always be recruiting.